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The Considerations Before Judgement, with Sue Ward

The Astrology Podcast・130 minutes read

TLDR: Sue Ward discusses traditional horary astrology and considerations before judgment in astrology, emphasizing the importance of thorough analysis and contextual understanding of astrological principles. The text explores the historical context, evolution of astrological practices, and the significance of proper chart interpretation for accurate readings in horary astrology.

Insights

  • Sue Ward, a seasoned astrologer, emphasizes the importance of traditional horary astrology, focusing on considerations before judgment.
  • Olivia Barclay's rediscovery of William Lilly's Christian Astrology sparked a revival of traditional horary astrology, influencing notable astrologers like Sue Ward.
  • Traditional astrology, encompassing horary events, elections, and nativities, maintains consistent principles applicable across various astrological branches.
  • Maurice McCann's critique of considerations before judgment in horary astrology challenged traditional beliefs, prompting a reevaluation within the astrological community.
  • Understanding the Moon's position and void of course status is crucial in interpreting horary charts accurately, impacting outcomes and judgment.
  • The void of course rule in astrology, evolving over time, reflects variations in defining when a planet is not making any further applications in a chart.
  • William Lilly's efforts to compile "Christian Astrology" during a plague outbreak in London underscore his commitment to astrological education and community expansion.

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Recent questions

  • What is the significance of considerations before judgment in horary astrology?

    Considerations before judgment in horary astrology are essential guidelines that determine whether a chart should be interpreted or not. Initially viewed as cautions, these considerations evolved into strictures, indicating that certain conditions must be met for a chart to be deemed valid for interpretation. Traditional astrologers like William Lilly emphasized the importance of these considerations to ensure accuracy and clarity in readings. The belief that charts with specific considerations should not be judged gained popularity among traditional horary astrologers in the 1980s, leading to debates and modifications in astrological techniques. Despite some astrologers questioning the relevance of these considerations, others like Sue Ward found them valuable in maintaining the integrity of horary astrology practices.

  • How did Maurice McCann's critique impact the traditional use of considerations before judgment in horary astrology?

    Maurice McCann's critique in 1992 challenged the traditional belief that charts with considerations before judgment should not be interpreted. His article, "Lilly Says...A Reference to the Considerations before Judgment," argued for a reevaluation of these practices within the astrological community. McCann's discovery that William Lilly did interpret charts with considerations present contradicted the prevailing belief at the time, sparking a reassessment of horary astrology practices. While some astrologers, like John Frawley, believed the considerations were meaningless, others, such as Sue Ward, found them valuable for ensuring accuracy and clarity in readings. McCann's critique prompted a thorough review and analysis of Lilly's charts and considerations, leading to a reexamination of the significance of these considerations in horary astrology.

  • How did Olivia Barclay's Qualifying Horary Practitioner course influence the revival of traditional horary astrology?

    Olivia Barclay's Qualifying Horary Practitioner course played a significant role in the revival of traditional horary astrology. The course produced notable astrologers like Sue Ward, John Frawley, and Lee Lehman, who went on to teach and practice horary astrology using traditional methods and teachings. Barclay's discovery of an original 1647 copy of Christian Astrology by William Lilly also contributed to the resurgence of traditional horary astrology. By focusing on the foundational principles and techniques of traditional astrology, Barclay's course emphasized the importance of respecting and preserving the historical roots of the practice. The establishment of numerous astrology courses in the late '80s and early '90s was a direct result of Barclay's influence, leading to a renewed interest in traditional astrology methods and applications.

  • What is the role of the Moon in horary astrology, especially concerning late degrees and void of course positions?

    In horary astrology, the Moon plays a crucial role as a co-significator and reflects change within a chart. Late degrees of the Moon, particularly in signs like Gemini, Scorpio, or Capricorn, can impact judgment and outcomes. Late degrees are associated with malefic planets, hindering the Moon's ability to function effectively. A void of course Moon, especially in the last 15 degrees of Libra or the first 15 degrees of Scorpio, can also influence chart interpretations. Understanding the Moon's position and condition is vital for accurate horary astrology readings, as it signifies change and reflects the querent's intent. Astrologers must pay attention to the Moon's function and position to interpret charts accurately and provide meaningful insights to clients.

  • How did Maurice McCann's article challenge the traditional use of considerations before judgment in horary astrology, and how did Sue Ward respond?

    Maurice McCann's article in 1992 challenged the traditional belief that charts with considerations before judgment should not be interpreted, sparking debates within the astrological community. McCann argued for a reevaluation of these practices, prompting astrologers to reconsider the significance of these considerations in horary astrology. Sue Ward, a practitioner of traditional horary astrology, responded to McCann's critique by meticulously analyzing William Lilly's charts and considerations. Ward found value in retaining the considerations, emphasizing their importance in maintaining accuracy and clarity in horary astrology readings. Her detailed review and analysis led to an article in the Astrology Quarterly, where she defended the traditional use of considerations before judgment and highlighted their role in preserving the integrity of horary astrology practices.

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Summary

00:00

Reviving Traditional Horary Astrology with Sue Ward

  • Chris Brennan hosts The Astrology Podcast, with Episode 296 recorded on March 17, 2021, at 9:47 AM in Denver, Colorado.
  • Astrologer Sue Ward is the guest, discussing considerations before judgment in horary astrology.
  • Sue Ward has been studying astrology for over 40 years, starting in the early '80s with a class by Kay Way.
  • She became captivated by astrology immediately, particularly drawn to horary astrology.
  • Sue Ward later studied with Olivia Barclay, focusing on horary astrology alongside the Faculty of Astrological Studies.
  • In the '70s, there was a push to remove superstition from astrology, aligning with scientific or cultural acceptance.
  • Traditional horary astrology, like that of William Lilly, was considered old-fashioned and odd in the '80s.
  • Olivia Barclay's discovery of an original 1647 copy of Christian Astrology by Lilly influenced the revival of traditional horary astrology.
  • Olivia Barclay's Qualifying Horary Practitioner course produced notable astrologers like Sue Ward, John Frawley, and Lee Lehman.
  • Sue Ward eventually taught horary astrology, focusing on the traditional methods and teachings of the practice.

14:04

Traditional astrology's diverse applications and influences

  • Traditional astrology has various applications like horary events, elections, or nativities, all falling under the same astrology umbrella.
  • Principles of traditional astrology are interchangeable across different branches of application.
  • Notable students of Olivia include Jackie Slevin and Gilbert Navarro, who taught Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson's methods.
  • Olivia's course led to the establishment of numerous astrology courses in the late '80s and early '90s.
  • The reprinting of William Lilly's Christian Astrology in 1985 marked a significant turning point in the astrology community.
  • The Regulus edition of Lilly's work was highly valued, with limited leather-bound copies available.
  • Accessing Lilly's original work directly was transformative for astrologers, providing essential foundational knowledge.
  • The Zadkiel edition of Lilly's work, including modern elements like newly-discovered planets, was considered a diluted version.
  • Horary astrology practices were influenced by modern views from astrologers like Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson and Barbara Watters.
  • Textual analysis of Lilly's work led to debates and modifications in astrological techniques, particularly regarding considerations before judgment.

28:33

Reevaluating Traditional Horary Astrology Practices

  • Christian Astrology, a comprehensive work, is divided into Book 1 focusing on basic concepts and definitions, leading to "Considerations before Judgment" before Book 2 delves into horary astrology.
  • The author, in compiling Christian Astrology, draws from various traditional astrological authorities, not solely Bonatti, emphasizing systematizing existing material rather than creating new theories.
  • Traditional astrologers like Lilly blend inherited knowledge with practical experience, forming their unique systems by testing principles on clients daily.
  • Respect for preceding authorities was crucial for traditional astrologers, with Christian Astrology reflecting a synthesis of traditional sources and the author's own experiences.
  • The considerations before judgment in horary astrology, initially viewed as cautions, evolved into strictures, indicating that a chart should not be interpreted if certain conditions are met.
  • The term "stricture" gained popularity among traditional horary astrologers in the 1980s, signifying a belief that charts with specific considerations should not be judged.
  • Maurice McCann's critique highlighted a discrepancy in interpreting horary charts with considerations, challenging the belief that such charts should be avoided.
  • Maurice McCann's article in 1992, "Lilly Says...A Reference to the Considerations before Judgment," argued that the considerations for judgment should be rejected or, at the least, contemplated rather than strictly followed.
  • McCann's article was pivotal in questioning the traditional belief that charts with considerations should not be judged, leading to a reevaluation of these practices within the astrological community.
  • The discovery that Lilly did interpret charts with considerations present, contrary to the prevailing belief, sparked a reexamination of horary astrology practices and the significance of these considerations.

43:35

"Challenging Traditional Astrological Interpretations"

  • SW found the new Regulus edition useful for encouraging proper reading and understanding of texts, rather than making assumptions.
  • Maurice often made accurate observations but tended to veer off track, leading to mistakes in his articles.
  • Maurice's article prompted SW to meticulously review and analyze every chart and section mentioned, taking a significant amount of time.
  • The article challenged the traditional use of considerations before judgment in horary astrology, questioning their purpose.
  • Maurice's tendency to draw extreme conclusions from analyzing sources was noted, such as with Bonatti and Lilly.
  • Some astrologers, like John Frawley, believed the considerations were meaningless, while others, like SW, found them valuable.
  • SW responded to Maurice's critique by carefully analyzing Lilly's charts and considerations, leading to an article in the Astrology Quarterly.
  • SW rejected Maurice's numerical tabulation approach, emphasizing the importance of context in horary astrology.
  • Maurice's failure to consider context led to flawed conclusions, as SW argued for retaining the considerations in Lilly's work.
  • Historical texts like Lilly's Christian Astrology should be judged based on their standards, not modern interpretations, to avoid misinterpretation.

59:07

Lilly's Christian Astrology: Horary Questions and Considerations

  • The particular book mentioned is a special exposition of an entity, reflecting respect for art and Christianity.
  • The author maintained a consistent line in his published career despite changing times for around 40 years.
  • Annoyance was expressed towards those rejecting texts like Lilly's without understanding or testing their own knowledge.
  • Maurice's article in 1992 and a response in 1993 highlighted Lilly's attention to considerations in astrology.
  • Lilly's considerations are detailed in Christian Astrology, with 12 initial ones and more later in Book 2.
  • The importance of a horary question being significant and properly constructed is emphasized.
  • The essence of a question lies in understanding the querent's ideal outcome, leading to clear answers.
  • The significance of the horary question is crucial in astrology, with considerations ensuring accuracy.
  • Modern horary astrology may accept frivolous questions due to easy chart calculations on computers.
  • Grounding charts on paper is advised for better understanding, as it brings the virtual into reality.

01:14:09

Astrology: Discerning Questions, Magical Process, Social Connections

  • Bonatti emphasizes the need to discern serious questions from frivolous ones to protect the astrologer and provide useful information.
  • Manual chart calculations allow astrologers to have precise knowledge of planetary positions, planetary hours, and other astrological factors, unlike relying solely on computers.
  • Astrologers must pay attention to the moment of a horary question to understand the querent's intent and inner thoughts, not just the question's outcome.
  • Engaging in horary astrology is considered a magical process that requires cleanliness of the soul and protection from negative influences.
  • Horary questions implicate the astrologer in the process, reflecting their role in the chart and emphasizing the need for respect and humility.
  • Considerations before judgment in astrology act as a form of purification, ensuring a safe and clear environment for both the astrologer and the client.
  • The consultation chart framework parallels the concept of a consultation chart in modern astrology, focusing on the astrologer's role in the reading.
  • William Lilly's work in astrology, particularly "Christian Astrology," was completed in about three years, starting in 1644, after approximately 12 years of studying astrology.
  • Lilly's relationships with other astrologers, like John Gadbury, were complex, with Gadbury eventually betraying Lilly by attacking him in print, leading to a reputation of ingratitude.
  • The interconnected relationships between astrologers in the 17th century, like Lilly and Gadbury, highlight the importance of social connections and rivalries within the astrological community.

01:27:27

Astrology's Influence on Lilly's Secret Society

  • Professor Josten suspected Lilly's involvement in a secret society due to his extensive social connections.
  • Elias Ashmole consulted with Lilly for astrological reasons despite their social differences.
  • Notable astrologers like Henry Coley, Richard Sanders, and Richard Edlin were Lilly's students.
  • Coley took over Lilly's practice after Edlin's death, criticized for selling talismans learned from Lilly.
  • Bonatti's considerations were likely translated by both Lilly and Coley due to Lilly's failing eyesight.
  • Lilly emphasized the importance of planetary hours in astrology, aligning with the journey of the Sun god.
  • The alignment of the ruler of the hour and the Ascendant's ruler indicates a radical chart in astrology.
  • The three criteria for a match in astrology involve the same planet, triplicity, or temperament between rulers.
  • Lack of alignment between rulers signifies a disconnect between the question and the heavens in astrology.
  • Rooting in astrology refers to grounding a question in reality for it to be feasible and substantial.

01:42:16

Astrology: Plausibility, Timing, and Radicality Explained

  • The idea of plausibility is crucial in astrology, indicating a disconnect with reality.
  • Charts must align with planetary hours for accurate judgment.
  • Early Ascendant degrees, especially in signs of short ascension, require careful consideration.
  • Late Ascendant degrees can also impact chart accuracy, potentially due to calculation errors.
  • Few degrees ascending may indicate the question is premature for judgment.
  • Early Ascendant degrees may signify a situation that has not fully developed yet.
  • Late Ascendant degrees could suggest a situation has already concluded.
  • Horary questions must align with the readiness of the situation being asked about.
  • Radicality in astrology signifies a strong foundation for accurate readings.
  • Astrologers like Bonatti, Lilly, and Culpepper developed considerations to address premature or deceptive questions.

01:56:50

Significance of Late Degrees in Horary Astrology

  • Late degrees in a chart indicate impending change or something past maturity.
  • Early degrees signify new change, while late degrees suggest a significant change.
  • Late degrees on the Ascendant imply a major change, possibly making the question irrelevant.
  • Early degrees on the Ascendant may indicate something premature, while late degrees suggest it's past relevance.
  • The Moon's position in late degrees, especially in Gemini, Scorpio, or Capricorn, can affect judgment.
  • Late degrees are associated with malefic planets, hindering the Moon's ability to function properly.
  • The Moon's condition is crucial in horary astrology, as it acts as a co-significator and reflects change.
  • The Moon being void of course, especially in the last 15 degrees of Libra or first 15 degrees of Scorpio, can impact outcomes.
  • The modern definition of a void of course Moon is when it completes no major aspects before changing signs.
  • Understanding the Moon's function and position is vital in interpreting horary charts accurately.

02:10:40

Understanding Void of Course Planets in Astrology

  • Orbs in modern astrology belong to the aspect, not the planet.
  • Application in astrology means moving towards while being within the joint moieties of orbs.
  • A planet is void of course when separated from another planet and not applying to any other.
  • The void of course rule states that the Moon or planet is not making any more applications.
  • The definition of void of course from Book 1 of Lilly emphasizes the application must be occurring at the time of the chart.
  • The Moon is not void of course if applying within orb of an aspect to another planet regardless of sign boundary.
  • The Moon is void of course if not applying within the next 10°-12° to another planet.
  • The Moon is void of course when it makes no further aspects in its current sign.
  • Lilly's definition of void of course is when the planet makes no further aspects in its current sign.
  • Interpretations of void of course have evolved over time, with some confusion around sign-based versus degree-based aspects.

02:25:10

Evolution of Astrology Definitions and Practices

  • Theosophical astrologers in the 20th century avoided horary astrology due to ethical reasons, leading to a lack of background and context for later practitioners.
  • Ebenezer Sibley, a notable astrologer from the 18th century, could provide insights into the evolution of astrology rules.
  • Research is suggested to trace the origins of modern astrology definitions, with a focus on Antiochus, Porphyry, and Rhetorius.
  • Definitions of "running in the void" by Antiochus, Porphyry, and Rhetorius show a progression in astrological understanding over centuries.
  • The definition of "joining" or "adherence" in astrology involves planets approaching each other within specific degrees, with variations for planets and the Moon.
  • The continuity of astrological systems from ancient Greek times to modern practices, with minimal changes over centuries, is highlighted.
  • Lilly's astrology principles, such as void of course and considerations involving the 7th house, are discussed for practical application.
  • The importance of understanding the 7th house in astrology, especially in non-7th house questions, is emphasized.
  • The consultation chart framework, where the querent is the 1st house and the astrologer is the 7th house, is explained in relation to medical questions.
  • William Lilly's efforts to compile and make astrology accessible through his book "Christian Astrology" are noted, reflecting his interest in education and expanding the astrological community.

02:38:55

Pirated Book Reveals Astrological Judgment Insights

  • The original edition of a book was pirated, leading to the unauthorized publication of another edition in 1659.
  • The pirated edition was identical to the first, with no improvements or changes made.
  • The page numbering in the pirated edition was inconsistent, similar to the original edition.
  • The text discusses an aphorism from Pseudo-Ptolemy's Centiloquium, focusing on the implications of an afflicted seventh house and its ruler.
  • The consideration of an afflicted seventh house warns of potential errors in judgment for astrologers.
  • Saturn's placement in the seventh house signifies potential misfortune or clouded judgment for the astrologer.
  • A combust planet in the seventh house indicates stress, secrecy, and potential dishonesty in the querent.
  • The presence of malefic planets in unfavorable positions can hinder the astrologer's ability to provide accurate judgments.
  • When testimonies of benefics and malefics are equal, it is advised to defer judgment until further information is available.
  • The text suggests that the astrologer may have avoided certain clients based on astrological indications, ensuring accurate readings.

02:52:05

Astrologer's predictions, Lilly's plague experiences, Ward's courses.

  • The astrologer was aware of upcoming events and afflictions, allowing him to predict the outcomes of certain situations.
  • Masha’allah's consideration about benefics and malefics being equal was passed down through tradition.
  • The core considerations before judgment in astrology include factors like Saturn or Mars in the 10th house.
  • The astrologer collected aphorisms from various authors for his book, even though some were repeated.
  • William Lilly wrote "Christian Astrology" during a major plague outbreak in London.
  • Lilly experienced different responses to plague outbreaks, including staying in London, being shut up from the plague, and moving to the countryside.
  • The Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in Aquarius may indicate the continuation of serious issues like the plague for the next 20 years.
  • Descriptions are crucial for finding radicality in a chart, matching physical appearances or circumstances.
  • Sue Ward co-authored a book on William Lilly and offers traditional horary courses, with online courses in development.
  • Ward's blog and social media accounts provide ways to stay updated on her work and contact her for consultations.

03:06:43

Astrology Podcast Patrons and Sponsors Appreciation

  • Special thanks to patrons on the Producers tier of The Astrology Podcast's Patreon page, including Nate Craddock, Thomas Miller, Catherine Conroy, Michelle Merillat, Kristi Moe, Ariana Amour, Mandi Rae, Angelic Nambo, Sumo Coppock, Nadia Habhab, Issa Sabah, Morgan MacKenzie, and Jake Otero. To become a patron and access exclusive benefits like early episode access, visit Patreon.com/AstrologyPodcast. Additionally, thanks to sponsors like the Northwest Astrological Conference (May 27-31, 2021 at NORWAC.net), The Mountain Astrologer Magazine (MountainAstrologer.com), The Honeycomb Collective Personal Astrological Almanacs (Honeycomb.co), the Portland School of Astrology (PortlandAstrology.org), the Astro Gold Astrology App (Astrogold.io), and Solar Fire Astrology Software (Alabe.com) with a 15% discount using promo code 'AP15'.
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