Unedited version. Jay Smith vs Dr Shabir Ally. Excellent Debate.

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A debate at North York Chinese Baptist Church between Jay Smith and Dr. Shabir Ali discusses whether the Bible or Quran is the word of God, touching on manuscript evidence, textual reliability, and divine intervention. Key points include numerical patterns, preservation, divine guidance, and criteria for determining inspiration in religious texts.

Insights

The debate compares the Bible and the Quran as the word of God, focusing on their textual integrity, inspiration, and worship of deities.
Manuscript evidence challenges the traditional narrative of Quranic preservation, revealing discrepancies and intentional changes in early copies.
The Quran's mathematical patterns, like those in the Egyptian edition, are presented as evidence of divine influence, contrasting with the Bible's textual history.
The comparison of Quranic and Biblical teachings highlights differing views on violence, women's treatment, and the portrayal of Jesus and Yahweh.
The Quran is defended for its preservation through diverse readings, while the Bible is critiqued for anonymous authorship and alleged contradictions.
The discussion delves into the interpretation of Jesus' teachings, the Quran's emphasis on peace, and contrasting views on historical analysis of religious texts.

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Recent questions

What is the debate topic between Jay Smith and Dr. Shabir Ali?
The debate centers on whether the Bible or the Quran is the word of God.
Who is the moderator of the debate between Jay Smith and Dr. Shabir Ali?
Stephen Martens moderates the debate despite his position on the topic.
What evidence does Dr. Shabir Ali present during the debate?
Dr. Shabir Ali presents the mathematical miracle of the Quran.
What are the rules for audience participation during the debate?
Audience members are encouraged to write down questions for the question and answer session.
How are the criteria for determining the word of God discussed in the debate?
Criteria include inspiration, beneficial teachings, absence of false prophecies, worship of Yahweh, and lack of internal contradictions.

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Summary

00:00

Debate: Bible vs Quran - Word of God

The debate is between Jay Smith and Dr. Shabir Ali at the North York Chinese Baptist Church on the topic of which is the word of God, the Bible or the Quran.
Stephen Martens, the founder of Evangelion and Apologia Ministries, is the moderator despite his position on the topic.
The debate is aimed at encouraging positive discussions between the Muslim and Christian communities.
Jay Smith, an evangelist and apologist to Muslims, holds a master's degree in Islamic Studies and is known for his unique Evangelistic Ministry.
Dr. Shabir Ali, holding an M.A. and Ph.D. in Islamic Studies, is an internationally sought-after speaker, scholar, and theologian.
The debate format includes opening statements, presentations, rebuttals, and a question and answer session.
Audience members are encouraged to write down questions during the break for the question and answer session.
Rules include reserving clapping or cheering until the end of the debater's presentation and keeping electronic devices silent.
Criteria for determining the word of God include inspiration, beneficial teachings, absence of false prophecies, worship of Yahweh, and lack of internal contradictions.
Dr. Shabir Ali will present the mathematical miracle of the Quran as evidence during the debate.

16:17

"Quran and Bible: Divine Origins Revealed"

The Quran, specifically the Egyptian edition, is noted for its mathematical patterns in the number of words, verses, and letters, suggesting divine influence.
Recent discoveries have revealed these patterns were not calculated by humans, challenging previous assumptions.
The Bible is also expected to have corroborating evidence supporting its divine origin, with neutral criteria applied to evaluate both books.
The compilation of the Quran occurred after the Prophet's passing, with standardized spelling and copies dispatched by Uthman around 650-656.
Six key manuscripts, including the Top Copy, Samarkand, and Husseini, have been scrutinized by scholars like Dr. Franco Durosh, revealing discrepancies.
The Top Copy manuscript, dated to the mid-8th century, contains 2,270 variants from the 1924 Cairo text, raising questions about its authenticity.
The Samarkand manuscript, also incomplete and from the mid-8th century, is riddled with errors and discrepancies, not aligning with Uthman's copies.
The Husseini manuscript, dated to the mid-8th century, displays different writing styles and errors, contradicting claims of its accuracy.
The Pollen CIS manuscript, with an underscript and overscript, shows an evolution in text between the late 7th and early 8th centuries, deviating from the standard Quran.
Dr. Dan Brubaker's research on intentional changes in the Quran, based on 10 early manuscripts, reveals hundreds of insertions, erasures, and coverings, challenging the text's integrity.

30:43

Evolution of Quranic Text: A Historical Analysis

Early manuscripts of the Quran show multiple changes, erasures, overwritings, and corrections on just one page.
Dr. Brubacher notes a movement towards a standardized Quran text from the 8th to 9th centuries, continuing for almost 200 years after Muhammad's death in 632.
Changes found in the manuscripts include corrections removing or adding long vowels, stylistic conformity to the 1924 text, and corrections by the original scribe.
Manuscript evidence challenges the traditional narrative, suggesting a longer process of standardization of written Qurans.
Dr. Andy Bannister's research reveals formulaic usage and borrowings from Jewish and Christian apocryphal writings in Quranic stories.
The Arabic script in the 7th century was incomplete and defective, requiring 200 years to accommodate the Quran with diacritical marks and vowelization.
Dr. Keith Small's study highlights seven different readings of the Quran due to script problems, leading to 14 readings by the 10th century.
The standardization of the Quran's text was a political process, with various caliphs and authorities involved in creating and choosing readings.
The Quran's official canonization in 1924, less than 100 years ago, raises questions about the authenticity and standardization of the text.
Comparison with the Bible's textual history and claims of eternal word of God highlight differences in the Quran's standardization process and textual reliability.

44:53

Comparing Quran and Bible Manuscripts: Origins and Preservation

Surah 4 Ayah 171 in the Quran is significant for Muslims as it refers to Jesus as the word of God.
Original manuscripts of the Quran are not available due to the perishable nature of papyrus, leading to uncertainty about the completeness of the text.
The New Testament has a vast corpus of manuscripts, with 19,800 translations in 11 languages, allowing for comparison and identification of variations.
Differences in manuscripts, like the possible addition in Mark 16 and the story of the adulterous woman in John, are acknowledged and marked in the Bible.
Ongoing discoveries of early biblical manuscripts, some dating back to the second century, contribute to understanding and validating the Bible's content.
The Quran's origins are debated, with suggestions that it began with Abdul Malik and was standardized later, contrasting with the New Testament's development.
The New Testament's compilation lacked political influence, with church leaders compiling and disseminating the texts for wider understanding.
The Quran's mathematical patterns, like equal mentions of contrasting words and specific word occurrences, are seen as evidence of divine origin.
The Quran's preservation and completeness are attributed to divine intervention, ensuring the text's accuracy and integrity.
The Quran's various readings, including authentic and non-authentic ones, provide additional insights into the text's meaning without contradicting the core message.

01:00:10

Numerical Patterns in Quran: Divine Design Unveiled

The Quran's pronunciation of "king" as "Malik" with a short "a" expands its meaning, offering complementary interpretations for Muslims.
The Quran's preservation is highlighted through a mathematical scheme in the Egyptian 1924 Edition, with 114 chapters and verses showing a balance of even and odd numbers.
The total of even number results from 57 chapters in the Quran is 6236, matching the total number of verses in the entire Quran.
The sum of odd number results from 57 chapters is 655, equating to the total of all chapter numbers in the Quran, showcasing a fine balance.
Rashad Khalifa's claim of a pattern of 19 in the Quran sparked curiosity, leading to discoveries aligning with multiples of 19 in various aspects of the Quran.
The Quran's mention of the number 19 in the 74th chapter is explained to provide certainty and increase faith, with intricate numerical patterns reinforcing this concept.
Detailed numerical patterns, such as 19 times three words or 57 words near the mention of the number 19, occur in specific chapters like the 74th and 96th of the Quran.
The Quran's mention of Jesus and Adam exactly 25 times each, scattered throughout the text, aligns with intricate numerical patterns reinforcing divine planning.
The Quran's inclusion of disjointed letters at the beginning of chapters, like the letter "Q" in chapters 50 and 42, showcases further numerical relationships, reinforcing divine design.
Comparisons between the Quran and the Bible in terms of inspiration and authenticity highlight the Quran's numerical intricacies as evidence of divine preservation and guidance.

01:15:26

"Debate: Bible vs Quran on divine inspiration"

Timothy mentioned the profitability of a book for teaching, highlighting the violent verses in the Bible.
Samson's story in the Book of Judges involves him praying for strength, leading to the death of 3,000 people, more than in 9/11.
The debate questions whether Samson's actions, including suicide killing, should be condemned despite New Testament praise.
Certain Bible verses are deemed inappropriate for teaching due to gratuitous descriptions of sexual activity.
Specific verses like Ezekiel 23:20 and Song of Solomon 7:2 are cited for their explicit content.
The debate contrasts the criteria for evaluating the Bible and the Quran, focusing on prophecies, worship of other gods, and contradictions.
The Bible is criticized for failed prophecies, promoting a new God in the New Testament, and contradictions regarding Jesus.
Contradictions in the Bible, like census discrepancies in Ezra and Nehemiah, are highlighted as evidence of copyist errors.
The Quran is defended as passing criteria for divine inspiration, while the Bible is critiqued for anonymous and pseudonymous authorship.
The debate challenges the Quran's alleged contradictions and changes, emphasizing the need for manuscript evidence and addressing consonantal differences.

01:30:41

"Questioning authorship and violence in religious texts"

The speaker discusses the criteria for determining inspiration in religious texts, questioning the authorship of the Bible and the Quran.
The author challenges the audience to consider who authored the Quran, highlighting the uncertainty surrounding its authorship.
The speaker contrasts the violence in the Old Testament with the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament, emphasizing a shift towards non-violence.
The discussion delves into the violent verses in the Quran, pointing out specific examples of violence and harsh punishments.
The speaker critiques the treatment of women in the Quran, citing verses that suggest oppressive practices towards women.
The debate shifts to the authenticity of the Quran, with one side arguing for its divine origin and the other questioning its textual variations.
The speaker presents mathematical evidence to support the accuracy of the Quran's text, focusing on the consistency of certain words and phrases.
The debate touches on the role of Prophet Muhammad in the Quran's composition, with differing views on his involvement.
The discussion extends to the interpretation of Jesus' teachings on the law, with contrasting perspectives on the continuity of the Old Testament laws.
The event organizers provide announcements about upcoming events, book sales, free literature distribution, and donation opportunities.

01:45:19

Comparing Islam and Christianity: Beliefs and Practices

To become a Muslim, one must believe in one God and that Muhammad is the messenger of God, then declare this belief to the community.
By declaring these beliefs, one becomes part of the Muslim community, fostering a sense of shared responsibility and support among members.
Becoming a Christian involves solely believing that Jesus died and rose again, without the need for additional rituals or practices.
Christianity emphasizes that salvation is a free gift attained through faith in Jesus, contrasting with Islam's requirement for various rules and practices to maintain salvation.
Dr. Shabir Ali questions the evidence for Jesus' resurrection in the Gospels and challenges the notion of salvation through faith alone in Christianity.
The discussion shifts to the use of numerical patterns in religious texts, with examples from various sources like the Empire State Building and novels like Moby Dick.
Jay Smith highlights the unique moral teachings of Jesus and the impact of Christianity on culture and society, contrasting it with atheism and historical atrocities committed by atheists.
Dr. Shabir Ali and Jay Smith debate the concept of divine intervention in religious texts and the evidence for the Quran being a revelation from God.
Dr. Shabir Ali affirms that the Quran supports freedom of worship, citing verses that emphasize individual responsibility in following God's message.
Jay Smith counters, attributing the growth of Islam to biological factors and restrictions on leaving the faith, while Christianity's conversion growth rate is higher due to its allowance for rejection and acceptance.

01:59:49

Preservation of Quran and Jesus in Scripture

In Christianity, rejecting Jesus does not result in punishment or execution, but forgiveness and prayer.
Surah 4 verse 89 does not sanction killing apostates, as it pertains to a war context.
The Prophet Muhammad did not kill anyone for apostasy, despite people apostatizing in his presence.
Variants in Quran manuscripts do not affect the Quran's preservation, as it is preserved through human efforts.
The Quran's preservation is akin to a gene passed down through generations, with diverse readings all approved in Islamic tradition.
The Quran is compared to a rope from God, with different strands representing various readings, all valid.
The Quran's preservation is not about a physical book in heaven but about God's foreknowledge.
The Quran's preservation is evident in its design, showing divine intervention.
Jesus can be found throughout the Old Testament, appearing in various forms and interactions with humans.
Jesus' presence in the Old Testament culminates in his purpose of coming to Earth to die and rise again, as prophesied in Genesis 3:15.

02:14:13

"Jesus in Old Testament: Historical Analysis Critique"

Dr. Shabir criticizes Jay for appealing to Christian beliefs without historical analysis, highlighting that historically, Jesus was not in the Old Testament.
He emphasizes that the Jews, who have read their Bibles for centuries, never found Jesus in the Old Testament, affirming the belief in one God, Yahweh.
Dr. Shabir points out that the New Testament writers, not historical evidence, introduced the idea of Jesus being God, which scholars today do not accept.
He questions Jay's focus on historical analysis when discussing the Quran but not Christianity, suggesting a lack of understanding of how Christian beliefs evolved.
Dr. Shabir defends the Quran, stating it emphasizes belief in all prophets, one God, and calls Christians back to the original teaching of one God.
He challenges the notion that the Quran could be from the devil, arguing that it promotes peace and condemns violence, contrasting it with certain Old Testament teachings.
Dr. Shabir highlights the Quran's emphasis on peace and the Messiah, Jesus, as the bringer of peace, aligning with the teachings of Moses and the original belief in one God.
Jay Smith responds by comparing textual variants in the Quran and the Bible, asserting that the Bible's variants are well-documented and do not alter the core message.
He explains a textual variant in the Bible regarding Jesus going up to the 12 disciples, illustrating how later additions clarify the original text without changing its meaning.
Jay challenges the lack of transparency regarding textual variants in the Quran, contrasting it with the open acknowledgment and study of variants in the Bible.

02:27:54

Comparing Quran and Bible: Women, Violence, Redemption

Quran teaches respect for women by comparing them to fields and implements used for livelihood
Quran meets five criteria, unlike the Bible which fails on the first due to unknown authors and false teachings
Quran's violent verses in Medina surahs contrast with the peaceful message of Jesus in the Bible
Islam and Christianity rely heavily on their scriptures, with Quran lacking coherence and completeness compared to the Bible
Jesus is portrayed as the Son of God and Yahweh in the Bible, while the Quran lacks the mention of Yahweh, pointing to Jesus as the ultimate redemption

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