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Greece vs Rome, with Boris Johnson and Mary Beard

Intelligence Squared・73 minutes read

Boris Johnson argues for Greek cultural superiority over Rome, emphasizing democracy, intellectual development, and enduring legacy. Mary Beard is expected to counter, but the debate ultimately leads to a vote favoring Rome due to its lasting impact on Western history and literature.

Insights

  • Greek civilization's enduring legacy is praised for its contributions to philosophy, art, democracy, and intellectual development, challenging traditional claims of Roman superiority and emphasizing individualism and cultural innovation.
  • Rome's cultural influence, while acknowledging Greek superiority in certain areas, is highlighted for preserving and disseminating Greek culture, showcasing a complex relationship between the two civilizations, and emphasizing liberty, multiculturalism, and urban challenges unique to Roman society.

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Recent questions

  • What were some key contributions of ancient Greece?

    Philosophy, democracy, art, literature, and Olympic Games.

  • How did ancient Rome borrow from Greek culture?

    Sculpture, architecture, food, music, and literature.

  • What were the contrasting values of ancient Greece and Rome?

    Democracy, individualism, and brutality versus dictatorship and fear.

  • What were some enduring influences of Greek culture?

    Philosophy, literature, art, and democratic principles.

  • How did ancient Rome differ from ancient Greece in terms of governance?

    Rome had a single ruler with unilateral power, while Greece had democracy.

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Summary

00:00

"Debate: Rome vs Greece - Legacy Revealed"

  • The event is introduced as a debate between Ancient Rome and Classical Greece, with Boris Johnson and Mary Beard representing each side.
  • Boris Johnson speaks first, emphasizing the rebellious and competitive nature of the Greeks, citing examples from Homer's Iliad and early Greek philosophers.
  • He highlights the birth of democracy in ancient Greece, attributing it to the absence of a king and the competitive city-state environment.
  • Boris discusses the influence of Eastern cultures on Greek intellectual development and the significance of individualism in Greek art and philosophy.
  • He credits the Greeks with the creation of philosophy, poetry, historiography, tragedy, comedy, biography, the Olympic Games, and modern systems of government.
  • Boris acknowledges Rome's military superiority over Greece but argues that Rome borrowed heavily from Greek culture in areas like sculpture, architecture, food, music, and literature.
  • He challenges the notion of Roman superiority, questioning their technological progress, treatment of women and slaves, and overall quality of life compared to the Greeks.
  • Boris concludes by rejecting traditional claims of Roman superiority and praising the enduring legacy of Greek civilization.
  • Mary Beard is expected to present the case for Rome, likely countering Boris's arguments and defending Roman achievements.
  • The debate format involves both speakers presenting their cases, followed by a head-to-head discussion and audience vote to determine if opinions have been swayed.

17:28

Greek Influence and Values in Literature and Society

  • Sophocles wrote "Oedipus at Colonus" in his 80s, a work still admired today.
  • Greeks, particularly Homer and Virgil, overshadow Romans in literary influence and popularity.
  • Plato and Aristotle's philosophies remain foundational in ethics, logic, politics, and metaphysics.
  • Sophocles' tragedies are still widely watched, unlike Roman playwrights like Seneca.
  • Aristophanes' comedic genius and influence are enduring, inspiring modern-day sex strikes for peace.
  • Roman drama lacked interest due to the prevalence of violent entertainment like gladiatorial games.
  • Roman society was characterized by brutality, fear, and a lack of democracy, contrasting Greek values.
  • Augustus, a Roman ruler, was a tyrant who imposed harsh laws and punishments, unlike the democratic ideals of Athens.
  • The Romans' suppression of democracy and adoption of dictatorship contrasted with Greek democratic principles.
  • The speaker advocates for preserving and teaching Greek culture and values, emphasizing freedom, democracy, and tolerance.

36:39

"Roman Citizenship: Liberty, Politics, Multicultural Society"

  • Grant of citizenship in history, making all part of wider world
  • Liberty in Rome, meaning freedom from oppression and law
  • Romans debated political liberty limits, faced unanswerable questions
  • Cicero claimed terrorist plot, executed presumed terrorists without trial
  • Romans discussed issues like Guantanamo Bay, drone strikes
  • Romans not a democracy, but popular power underpinned by liberty
  • Roman politics involved canvassing, recognizing voters, flattery
  • Rome had multicultural, bilingual society, urban living challenges
  • Roman society included women, more economic independence than Athens
  • Rome incorporated new citizens, spread citizenship among conquered and refugees

56:40

"Greek sculptures eroded, challenging perception of culture."

  • Greek sculptures originally had paint, eroded over time, challenging the perception of Greek culture as pure and white.
  • Greek culture was diverse, not priggish, and not as savage or nasty as Romans.
  • Cicero's manual on politics was tragically written before his demise by the Romans.
  • Athenian democracy briefly flourished before being destroyed by Philip of Macedon.
  • Europe took a long time to recover democracy after the Romans abolished it.
  • Pus of Epis nearly destroyed the Romans with elephants but was defeated.
  • The ancient world might not have been worse with different kingdoms and republics instead of Rome.
  • Athenian city-states were not all democracies; many were oligarchies.
  • Nero's brutal actions, like castrating a man to replace his deceased girlfriend, were extreme.
  • Roman culture was parasitic on Greek culture, preserving Greek statues and literature.

01:12:00

Greek vs Roman Civilization: A Comparative Analysis

  • Romans spoke Greek, not Latin
  • Avid, a brilliant poet, was exiled for an affair involving Julia, daughter of Emperor Augustus
  • Greeks had democracy, Romans had a single ruler with unilateral power
  • Greeks believed in freedom, Romans in liberty
  • Athenians stopped Persian armies, crucial for classical civilization
  • Greeks used Trident, Romans used it in the arena
  • Romans corrupted the Olympic Games, Nero won every race
  • Roman Empire flourished despite rulers like Caligula and Nero
  • Conflict between Roman Christians and non-Christians, not external persecution
  • Comparison of Classical Greece and ancient Rome, including archaic Greece, over 500 years

01:27:17

Debate: Rome vs Greece in Western History

  • Foreigners could not become citizens in a certain place but could reside there by paying a hefty non-dom tax, larger than in London.
  • A debate arises regarding the influence of Rome versus Greece on the French and American Revolutions, with a focus on Greek philosophy's impact on Western philosophy.
  • The French Revolution is argued to be inspired by Roman ideas of Liberty, with Napoleon invoking Roman institutions to justify his actions.
  • A question is posed about where an individual, a non-native Londoner who enjoys various activities, would be happiest between Greece and Rome, with London suggested as the best option.
  • The debate concludes with a vote favoring Rome over Greece, emphasizing the enduring influence of Roman literature and culture on Western history.
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